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New anti-terror laws and the Muslim community
by AMCRAN Friday October 21, 2005 at 03:45 PM
ja@justiceaction.org.au

AMCRAN is working with many civil rights groups and also members of both political parties to prevent this legislation from going through. We are preparing to send out further action alerts closer to the date, so please keep an eye out.

New anti-terror laws...
suspicious.jpg, image/jpeg, 479x227

On 8 September the Prime Minister introduced a 12-point plan outlining new anti-terror laws in a press release. Two weeks later he went to the Council of Australian Governments meeting with the proposals. They approved the measures by and large.

However, until last Friday (14 October) the public had not seen the laws. This all changed when Jon Stanhope, the Chief Minister for the ACT, leaked draft anti-terror laws.

Since then, leading legal experts, academics, politicians and civil rights groups, including AMCRAN, have been carefully analysing the legislation.

It is now clear that there are serious human rights concerns with the draft legislation, that it is open to abuse in its application and that it does not carry the safeguards that the Prime Minister promised.

In this e-mail we will outline the new anti-terror laws as drafted and explain some of the practical implications of the new laws, with an emphasis on the impact on the Muslim community. We will also look at what you can do about these laws.

The information in this e-mail is based on the draft legislation released by Mr Jon Stanhope on 14 October 2005 (available here:
http://www.chiefminister.act.gov.au/docs/B05PG201_v281.pdf).
The Government has already indicated that further changes will be made.

-------------- CONTROL ORDERS --------------

Control orders allow a person to be put under house arrest, to be forced to wear a tracking device, to be stopped from using phones or internet, or a number of other measures. Violating a control order carries a 5year penalty, even if unintentionally. Control orders can last for up to a year, or 3 months if you are between 16 and 18. But the new legislation specifically allows for "rolling" control orders; i.e., one control order finishes, and the next one begins. This means that it is possible that someone could have control orders apply to them for the term of their natural life; with control orders issued year after year after year.

The judge can make control orders if the order would substantially assist in preventing a terrorist act; or if the person has provided training to, or received training from, a banned terror organisation.

When control orders are issued, the judge doesn't have to meet the usual standards of "beyond reasonable doubt" for criminal charges. It is a "balance of probabilities" test; in other words, the judge only has to believe it is more likely than not that the person meets the above criteria. Hence control orders can be seen as a "back door" to imprisoning someone if you don't have enough evidence to charge them with a normal offence.

What's more, it is a "guilty until proven innocent" approach. A police officer, with the Attorney General's permission, goes to a judge and requests a control order. The subject of the order is then taken into custody. Only once they are in custody can they apply for the order to be revoked, with the limitations of the control order imposed on them (for example, if you can't use the phone and you can't leave home, trying to contact a lawyer might be a little difficult).

Muslim community impact: Because it's a "balance of probabilities" test, rather than "beyond reasonable doubt" test, and because the subject of the order isn't even there at the time the decision is made there is the potential for stereotypes and racial profiling. This could lead to many innocent people being imprisoned.

Also, the "training with a terrorist organisation" clause is retrospective, so it would apply to people who might have -- many years ago -- worked with Hamas or Lashkar-e-Taiba, before they were outlawed and before September 11. There is already a crime for "training with a terrorist organisation", but this seems to be a backdoor way to limit the freedoms of people who can't be found guilty of a crime.

------------PREVENTATIVE DETENTION --------------

The police can get a preventative detention order to hold a person for up to 24 hours. This initial preventative detention order can be issued by the Federal Police alone without judicial approval. This can then be extended later to up to 48 hours. It can only be applied if police think there is a terrorist attack likely in the next 14 days, or there was a terrorist attack in the last 28 days. It is planned that the states will introduce legislation for the preventative detention to be extended for an additional 12 days.

When detained, you can talk to a lawyer, but only if they are security cleared; and all your conversations are monitored. If you want to talk to your lawyer in Arabic, then there has to be a translator there so the police can hear what you are saying. You can call your family, but you can only tell them that you are ok, and that you are not contactable -- if you say any more, you can go to prison for 5 years.

Once you are held under preventative detention, there is no provision for review of the decision.

Muslim community impact: It is possible that in the aftermath of a terrorist attack, many Muslims will be arrested to "preserve evidence", while the police try to work out what is going on and apply a "better safe than sorry" approach to detaining people. Indeed, in the aftermath of September 11, at least 70 people (all but one Muslim) were detained using the "material witness" laws in the US, the effect of which is similar to preventative detention. This is the most conservative estimate, because of secrecy, we don't how many were detained, but some estimates are as high as 1200.

---------RANDOM STOP AND SEARCH POWERS ---------

Police can stop you, ask you your name, address, proof of who you are, why you are somewhere and can search you, your vehicle or anything under your control; if they think that you "might have just committed, might be committing, or might be about to commit a terrorist act." If the police find something that they think can be used as part of a terrorist act, they can take it from you.

In addition, the Attorney General can declare an area (there is no limit on the size, could be "the Opera House", or could be "Lakemba") to be a "security zone" for up to 28 days. This declaration of a security zone, on the grounds of "preventing a terrorist act occurring; or in responding to a terrorist act that has occurred," means police don't have to have suspicion, they can just search everyone.

Muslim community impact: This opens a huge door for racial profiling -- it is more likely that Muslims will be searched. Furthermore, it may cause community backlash against Muslims as people blame Muslims for being subject to these measures. There is also a particular issue for women who wear hijaab or niqaab who might be requested to remove their hijaab as part of a search. There is no requirement that the search be conducted in private.


-------INCITEMENT, SEDITION AND "ADVOCATING" TERRORISM----


There are a number of complex measures relating to incitement and sedition. This would limit people's ability to speak openly about any armed conflict in the world, if it includes Australia or Australia's allies. For example, if a person said that "Iraqis have the right to resist the occupation of Iraq by Western occupiers," this statement could be considered seditious and would carry a sentence of up to 7 years.

Furthermore an organisation that adopted a stance such as the above, would be considered to be "advocating terrorism". Advocating terrorism is defined as „praising the doing of a terrorist act‰, „directly or indirectly counseling or urging the doing of a terrorist act, or directly or indirectly providing instructions on the doing of a terrorist act‰.

If that is the case, the organisation can be proscribed, which carries with it many offences. For example, being an informal member of such an organisation would carry a sentence of 10 years.

Muslim community impact: Muslims often express solidarity with the Muslim brothers and sisters elsewhere in the world, in places such as Iraq, Kashmir, Afghanistan and Palestine, and want their brothers and sisters to be free. In some cases, they express the point of view that these people have the right to use violence as a means of achieving their goals, just as the Australian Government advocated the use of violence to protect itself from weapons of mass destruction from Saddam Hussein. Such statements would now possibly illegal under these proposed laws.

------- CHARITY -------

The new provisions for financing of a terrorist organisation mean that many innocent people trying to support worthwhile causes could end up in prison for up to 15 years. Under the new measures, if someone asks you for help collecting charity for a cause and you help them, you have to check they are not using it for terrorist causes. For example, X asks you to help him raise money for victims of an earthquake in Pakistan. You help X to raise funds, but X then gives the funds to an organisation in Pakistan that as well as helping with the earthquake, also engages in activities the government thinks are illegal. You are now guilty of a crime that could find you in prison for 15 years.

Muslim community impact: There is the serious potential for innocent people with a sincere intention to help others will end up in prison for having done no wrong except for having taken someone's word. Furthermore, existing anti-terror laws have seen donations to charities in Australia decrease. These laws would reduce charity even more, and would create feelings of ill-will and suspicion among the community.

-------------- OTHER MEASURES --------------

Other measures in the anti-terror laws give police extensive powers to ask you to produce personal and private documents such as financial records and to find out about your travel patterns. Safeguards that ASIO have to meet when tapping phone calls and monitoring mail have also been weakened.

---------------- WHAT YOU CAN DO ----------------

These laws are likely to be introduced into Federal Parliament on 31 October. It is expected that the Senate will only have one week to scrutinise the draft laws by 8 November 2005. There is only very little time.

AMCRAN is working with many civil rights groups and also members of both political parties to prevent this legislation from going through. We are preparing to send out further action alerts closer to the date, so please keep an eye out. To keep up-to-date, subscribe to AMCRAN-news@amcran.org. You can do this by visiting:
http://www.amcran.org/index.php?id=30&Itemid=52

You can also write to your state premier, your state Attorney-General, to the Prime Minister, to the Attorney-General, and to your local Member of Parliament. Some parts of the laws require States to enact supporting legislation to the Federal law, so it is worth writing to both.

Arch Bevis Shadow Minister for Homeland Security Parliament House, Canberra Fax: (02) 6277 8534 Arch.Bevis.MP@aph.gov.au

For those in New South Wales: Morris Iemma Premier of New South Wales Fax: 02 9228 3934 http://www.nsw.gov.au">thepremier@http://www.nsw.gov.au>

Bob Debus NSW Attorney General Fax (02) 9228 3166
bob.debus@debus.minister.nsw.gov.au

For those in Victoria: Steve Bracks Premier of Victoria Fax: (03) 9397 7227 steve.bracks@parliament.vic.gov.au

Rob Hulls Vic Attorney General Fax: (03) 9379 4434 rob.hulls@parliament.vic.gov.au

For those in Canberra: Jon Stanhope Chief Minister and Attorney-General
Fax: (02) 62050433 stanhope@act.gov.au

---------------FURTHER INFORMATION -------

A coalition of lawyers, academics, policy workers and civil rights groups have written to the State Premiers and Attorneys-General outlining the serious discrepancies between what was promised at the COAG meeting and the draft legislation. You can view a copy of the letter here:

http://www.amcran.org/images/stories/ChiefMinLetter.pdf

An earlier report called "Laws for Insecurity? A Report on the Federal Government's Proposed Counter-Terrorism Measures" detailing various concerns regarding the Federal Government‚s proposals can be viewed from the AMCRAN website http://amcran.org. It highlights the lack of justification for the laws. Among other concerns emphasised are the substantial departures from key principles of a liberal democracy, the constitutional problems, and the lack of safeguards.

If you have any questions please email us at amcran@amcran.org.





add your comments


Too bad
by non muslim Friday October 21, 2005 at 04:00 PM

Perhaps if Muslims didn't commit so many terrorist acts, or give so much support to terrorists, they wouldn't have to worry about these measures.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com

add your comments


Perhaps not?
by Luke Friday October 21, 2005 at 04:27 PM

Perhaps if the Coalition of the Killing would stop their illegal an degrading wars and crimes against humanity then there would be no terrorists.

Let me tell you if our government continues on its high on the hill policy you'll soon be getting blown off the bus and the train by some loser who has been mistreated..

I hope if they do, they take out those who are responsible and not peace loving individuals who are opposed to the war and the war crimes committed by the killers running our government.

add your comments


History of the World
by Mel Brooks Friday October 21, 2005 at 04:36 PM

"Perhaps if the Coalition of the Killing would stop their illegal an degrading wars and crimes against humanity then there would be no terrorists. "

Because -- as we all know -- there was NO Islamic terrorism before George Bush was elected, right?

add your comments


It's a religion thing
by Kalidasa Friday October 21, 2005 at 04:59 PM

Muslim terrorists are murdering Buddhists in Thailand.

Is that because of George Bush?

Or is it because the Quran tells Muslims to kill non-believers?

add your comments


Legitimate Arab grievances
by Dying for the right to be an arselicker Friday October 21, 2005 at 06:12 PM

What "Muslim" terrorist acts occured before western powers set about about taking Palestine off the Palestinians and giving it to Jews?

Why should Arabs tolerate American bases and troops on their soil against their wishes? We know they're not there for democracy. They back corrupt dictatorships who plunder the oil of the Middle Easts people.

Just because Aussies are a bunch of arselickers who let yanks use Depleted Uranium and anything else they fancy willy nilly on our (stolen) land doesn't mean everyone else should be obsequious arselickers too.

add your comments


Onward Christian Soldiers
by Stormin' Norman Friday October 21, 2005 at 07:12 PM

"Why should Arabs tolerate American bases and troops on their soil against their wishes? "

The Saudis and Kuwaiti were sure willing to tolerate them when they were shaking in their robes about getting their collective butts stomped by Saddam Hussein.

The truth is -- there isn't any single act of attrition that the West could make to placate the murderers who have co-opted Islam.

Not even the total destruction of Israel would make them happy.

And -- if these murderers think they will win this conflict -- they haven't read their history

add your comments


The mother of all debacles
by Arab Sympathiser Friday October 21, 2005 at 07:33 PM

" And -- if these murderers think they will win this conflict -- they haven't read their history"

That's what the majority were saying to Bush, Bliar and HoWARd all along. These stupid pricks will be long gone before this shit they started even begins to get sorted out. Why should they care anyway, it won't be their arses on the line.

You're right, we can't win this conflict. They're unified, we're divided. We'll be out of there sooner or later and all that we'll have achieved is a bloody mess.

What were we supposed to be fighting for anyway? Freedoms? Pppffffft! Even if you believe that they're long gone thanks to our great and wise leaders.

I'm with the other side. At least they are fighting for things I can identify with.

add your comments


A perfect example of Arab unity
by "United" Arab Republic-LMAO Saturday October 22, 2005 at 02:04 AM

"
You're right, we can't win this conflict. They're unified, we're divided. "

Arabs have NEVER been united...they are victims of petty tribalism. Given the absence of an outside enemy, they return to killing each other, as they always have done. Even, as witnessed in today's Iraq, they continue to kill each other...Sunnis bloody Sunnis and Shia bloody shia- hardly peaceful united peoples.
The only divisiveness in the west, is by useful idiots who believe that arabs are united.

add your comments


United Common Sense
by Gregory Saturday October 22, 2005 at 08:43 AM

United Common Sense...
hsc1799l.jpgqebibg.jpg, image/jpeg, 400x313

Regarding the above comments:

"in the aftermath of the illegal and degrading war on Iraq, at least 100,000 men women and children were killed, maimed and tortured. Because of the unlawful pre-emptive attack on their sovereign nation, many Muslim were "illegally" detained without having any regard for the "International Law". This is a most conservative estimate, because of secrecy; we don't know how many were detained, tortured or killed. Some estimates would be a lot higher than 100,000."

If you consider those figures as a percentage of the overall Australian population, it would translate to occupation of a sovereign nation state. Considering they'd ultimately get angry about that then this is a bad statistic considering the fuss that's being made over the war criminal john HoWARd's new anti-liberty laws and considering victims in Iraq and Afhganistan for that matter would ultimately be let go if they survived - innocent, just like in an unfortunate pre-emptive attack in conventional crime.

"Australian community impact: This opens a huge door for fear and the terror of reprisal by the people who were attacked on the people who did attack the sovereign nation states -- it is more likely that our laws will become restrictive because of the fear of reprisal and everyone will become suspicious of each other!

It does appear "more likely" that the People who were attacked, would react and blame the people who did attack including Muslims, Buddhists, Methodists, Jews or Christians those who were attacked will retaliate with forthcoming reprisal attacks on the West and this seems to be ignored quite a bit.

As such, perhaps the innocent majority who are being disadvantaged, should take the initiative and turn their anger towards the 'Coalition of the Killing' and the 'terrorist minority' amidst their region, rather than 'cry victim' and aim their anger at a softer targets like the 'community at large' to get rid of the problem our government 'created for the community'. Which has completely failed to be dealt with.

This photo sums it up beautifully.

Thank you for your time.

Ps) Don't forget the shoes for Simon and go fuck yourself for professor rat....

add your comments


Excuse The Wrong Photo
by Gregory Saturday October 22, 2005 at 08:49 AM

Excuse The Wrong Pho...
iraq.jpgdgj42c.jpg, image/jpeg, 500x400

Opps!

This photo sums it up beautifully.

Thank you for your time.

Ps) Don't forget the shoes for Simon and go fuck yourself for professor rat....

add your comments


I Love the Colonel
by Give War A Chance Saturday October 22, 2005 at 11:08 AM

Mmmmmm..... original, or extra crispy

add your comments


Shoes are up
by Simon Saturday October 22, 2005 at 11:28 AM

Let’s see.

What happens if a democratic government ignores the wishes of the people?

First the government tells the people that they are ignorant, on the basis that the government has hard secret evidence and all the intelligence,

They have proof, but can't show it, for secret reasons.

it makes the opposition look stupid, because they've got nothing.

The Government ask for trust, demands patience and act as if there is only one thing to do, and immediately pursue pre-emptive strikes to save our skins from WMD and terrorists.

Which was really the best thing to do

if the intention was to profit financially from the arrangement, we win, free trade, wars great for manufacturing and raw material sales, 2 out of three’s great for economies…lovely!. What do you think?

it was either that or....

A Western example of benevolent behaviour.

Is that what Jesus would have done? I wonder, but not for long.

As a result of the deceptions and lies no word coming from official sources can now be trusted.

Saddam loyalists, Al Qeader, Sunnis and Shiites and all Muslims opposed to western occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan are now Christian/western/Jewish enemies and they want to kill us.

Can’t say I blame them, it’s a reasonable attitude seen from their side.

Muslim Perception

Westerners are represented by our democratic governments, who listen to public demands and act in the best interest of the people.
This is the advertised advantage of democracy, each of us votes, therefore, reflecting recent events, we have all told our government to invade kill and destroy Muslim nations.

We the people of our democratic nations want to kill Muslims.


Some European countries stayed out of the coalition, they were unwilling to ride roughshod over the wishes of their people and stayed away from middle eastern take overs.

Muslims say,

If we did not want our government to do this criminal act then they would have to listen and obey the wishes of the people, no excuses as in a democracy the people rule the government, one vote for all.

Is that not the way democratization advertises the product?

Of course and Muslims are not fools.

In reality 80% of the people were ignored in America, GB and Australia, the ignorant people marched in demonstrations and wrote letters, they demanded representation but got none.

Now the democratic Despotic Regimes of the Willing Nations have bought in anti terror laws to defend the free people of the west, and you believe these new powers are directed against Muslims.

You ignorant fool,
You dummed down nana’s,
These laws are directed against YOU.

The 80% who will be bought with tax cuts or guarantees of stable interest rates or raised child allowances while the economies is strong enough to give.

But what happens to the calm of of society when the local economy goes broke?

What happens when we are joint partners in continued middle eastern conflict,

What happens when conscription comes in?

when our governments fiscal policy depends upon AId from US donations.

What are you going to do Then?

Demonstrate?

Oh pity about that they arrested and detained your activists,

No organisers or organisations for you!

Write a letter?

To the editor of a Newscorp paper, or to a right wing labour or liberal politician,

waste of paper.

Yeah go Girl!

Slap their wrists & bottoms.

Or Throw shoes?

Decorating the wires before Christmas makes more sense than chopping down trees for Jesus.

I don’t have anything against democracy, that’s why I am angry, because what’s on offer is only to support a police state.

These laws are directed against any dissent, any opposition any free speech and every person, these laws are against the freedoms we once had that stopped our country from invading others for money.

Look what happened.

add your comments


Facts versus Fantasy
by Nazihunter Saturday October 22, 2005 at 02:19 PM

What "Muslim" terrorist acts occured before western powers set about about taking Palestine off the Palestinians and giving it to Jews?

Islamic crusades against non-combatants date back to Mohammed beheading several of them thousands of years ago. It's convenient for you to echo Arab despots by suggesting it's all Israel's (and by extension America) fault, however history and the facts simply aren't on your side.

You make the mistake of trying to identify the root cause of Islamist terrorism through Western values. The reality is however that no amount of foreign aid to the Palestinian people nor any resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict, will actually pacify these current and potential terrorist killers. Even if (God forbid) Israel were completely obliterated (the stated goal of much of the Muslim world), brutal Islamic terror would continue until the entire non-Islamic world is under their control. Don't kid yourself otherwise, and that doesn't include Muslim on Muslim violence, which is far more prevalent, yet widely under-reported.

I have no doubt you will call me names, yet this is not the rantings and belief of an "Islamophobic" bigot. This is merely what they say themselves in their sermons and media daily (see http://www.memritv.org ), teach in their schools (www.pmw.org.il>) , and believe in many of their hearts. It matters little that "the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists," as we keep hearing after each Islamic terrorist attack. What does matter a great deal is that most terrorists are Muslims.

The sooner Moderate Islamic communities, Western leaders and especially the Western (or heaven forbid independent) media begin stating what is blindingly obvious to most people; rather than frequently apologising for it or scapegoating Israel, the quicker the real root cause can be dealt with and terror abolished.

add your comments


The more things change
by Saladin-those who fail to learn from history Saturday October 22, 2005 at 04:14 PM

Predictably, Naziboy our resident Zionazi sayanim is quoting MEMRI...

"The sources, who requested anonymity, said the center has already started operation, noting that it was the first Israeli center operating publicly in Baghdad since its downfall on April 9.

The heavily-guarded building, they said, obtained work permits from the U.S. occupation authority in Iraq and the Pentagon.

The Iraqis sources said the center is affiliated to the Washington-based MEMRI (short for the Middle East Media Research Institute), an Israeli association set up five years ago, with offshoots in London, Berlin and West Jerusalem.

"Superficially, the center follows up Arab newspapers in the Arab world and Europe, particularly London, translates key articles into Hebrew, English, German, French and Italian and circulate them among subscribers, not to mention state-run Israelis institutions," they clarified.

The sources put at 35,000 the number of subscribers, who receive MEMRI's services on a daily basis, adding that it is a non-profitable organization and employs dozens in its different offshoots.

"MEMRI receives donations from Jewish and Zionist institutions from all over the world," they averred.

Brian Whitaker, a Guardian writer, has investigated whether the 'independent' MEMRI is quite what it seems.

He wrote on August 12, 2002, that MEMRI is "rather a mysterious organization. Its website does not give the names of any people to contact, not even an office address."

Whitaker attributed "Memri's air of secrecy" to those who run it, noting that its co-founder, president and registered owner of its website, "is an Israeli called Yigal Carmon."

"Mr - or rather, Colonel - Carmon spent 22 years in Israeli military intelligence and later served as counter-terrorism adviser to two Israeli prime ministers, Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin."

The Guardian writer said that based on a retrieved now-deleted page from MEMRI’s website archives, he came across the names of six people, "three - including Col Carmon - are described as having worked for Israeli intelligence."

He added that another staff "served in the Israeli army's Northern Command Ordnance Corps.""

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-08/16/article02.shtml

"The first Crusaders crossed into Anatolia in 1097 and reached Jerusalem by the summer of 1099. The fighting was fierce, but the unsuspecting Muslims were no match for the bloodthirsty Crusaders, who killed not only fighting men, but also women and children. The victorious Crusaders established four colonies along the eastern Mediterranean including one in Jerusalem.

A second Crusade was launched when the Muslims recaptured one of the Christian colonies. This time the Muslims were prepared and defeated the Crusaders. "

Muslims are united against western imperialism. The majority in the west are opposed to western imperialism in the Middle East.

Do the maths. We will lose.

Arab Land. Arab People. Arab Rights. Arab Choice.

No Israel and no western imperialism = no conflict with Islam.

Why do we never hear the US threatening to get rid of the undemocratic and despotic Saudi or Kuwaiti dictatorships?

add your comments


Don't be too alarmed
by Luke Saturday October 22, 2005 at 04:18 PM

Nazihunter,

Don't be too alarmed, you're just looking in the mirror.

Calm down now your mummy still loves you.

We are just removing your mask, it takes time but you'll get used to it!

add your comments


Nazihunter.
by Simon Saturday October 22, 2005 at 04:20 PM




I thought you were more intelligent than you actually are.

The ancient history of Mohammed may mean something to their fundimentalist counterparts who praise Jesus as a peace loving saviour, but in the field of economics and current conflict 2005-10-22 the reference means nothing.

Preceding world war 1, Germany did a deal with the Ottoman Empire in Persia to deliver advanced technology, a steam train, to transport oil from Baghdad to develop industrial Germany in 1900.

Just a trade deal, between two nations and an Empire like all the current arrangements seen throughout the coalition of the willing, times have not changed.

As a result of the expected rise of German economic power the British Empire stepped in to defend its Market share, and were seen to defend France North Africa and the Middle East.

Some say the action was attack, as Britain’s borders were never actually threatened.

Between the wars Israel was extracted by deception from Palestine and by the point of a British weapon, some say Christendom’s crusade had finally been won.

The 2nd world War saw Germany feature again and the oil fields east of Poland became the sought after target and to confirm North Africa became battle fields, again oil was the reason. The British Empire again had to protect its market share.

Oil by that time had allowed machines to make all the difference in war. 1st world war lessons were learnt, Aircrafts delivered far reaching attacks, tanks held lines and trucks transported logistical support while ships provided supplies.

There was no industry without oil,
There is no consumerism without oil,
There would be no wealth without oil not then or now,
There had to be a war for oil, nothing has changed

Why should it?
Its only been less than a lifetime.

All the opposition directed at Jews is justified because Israel was founded upon lies misrepresentation and by its existence now represents misery to its own people and millions in the affected region.

Common sense dictates there is a hidden reason why Israel is allowed to maintain a first world subsidised parasite state within a third world region, and explains why the nations who support it with open aid secret cheques do so without any real opposition.

Israel represents the only guaranteed allies within the largest oil region in the world, and as Israel cannot exist without western support, This makes Israel a western colonialist nation populated by Europeans,

Just face it, that’s a fact, you may want to call me names, but Racist or anti Semitic I am not, just anti Israel and anti the Europeans that live in Israel.

There is no law against it, Australia need the population so why not promise them land here?

Promised land is just faith based made up bullshit, all ancient fairy stories that the New Christian do not believe in, because such notions come right out of the old testament, a book Christians do not value.

Israel will be dissolved once its strategic significance evaporates as the Coalition is forced to withdrawn from the Middle East.

What is forgotten by you, Nazi boy, is that the west has been invading and interfering in Arab affairs for all of living memory, while Muslim states have never stepped out of their borders once.

All states were and still are ruled by dictators who enjoy western protection, the people in a civil uprising now represent a grass root movement that cannot be defeated in war, it’s a class struggle supported by religious ideals.

You can not ask terrorists what kind of a society they want to create after the conflict, because the struggle for freedom was never their choice. Current Muslim Terrorists initial reason for action was western interference; therefore ceasing western interference is the only road to peace.

But then how do we secure the Oil?

Do we then buy it through China?

Because if western influence fails to force Iraq to hand over its oil in receipt for law enforcement then China will make the deal and support a communist dictator in Bagdad instead.

Which will destroy Israel.

So what you refer to as terrorists are patriots and unrepresented freedom fighters who bravely sacrifice their lives for a better future under self rule.

Too bad if civilians die, as that was never a western concideration.

add your comments


Arab unity
by In two world's Sunday October 23, 2005 at 12:59 AM

Arab unity breifly existed under the leadership of T E LAWRENCE (aka Lawrence of Arabia) Even today's Arab League is in a bloody shambles. The Sunni and Shier hate each others guts. Even in Pakistan they are busy killing the Shier. So much for brotherly love.

add your comments


history
by Jay Sunday October 23, 2005 at 11:22 AM

The first Crusaders crossed into Anatolia in 1097 and reached Jerusalem by the summer of 1099. The fighting was fierce, but the unsuspecting Muslims were no match for the bloodthirsty Crusaders, who killed not only fighting men, but also women and children."

This of course ignores the imperialist history in the region between the seventh and eleventh centuries - look it up - interesting reading.

add your comments


Valid Reason
by Allah Snakbar Sunday October 23, 2005 at 04:28 PM

In 1097 -- Pope Urban II called upon pilgrims to travel from Europe to the "Holy Land" to assist the Byzantine Christians -- the whole enterprise was roundly considered to be a disaster on both sides

One good thing -- it now gives every rag-wearing, West hating. suicidal moron with an explosive belt and a Koran an excuse to kill infidels

So, it wasn't a total waste. As long as I can claim that your people screwed my people a thousand years ago -- it justifies murder

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same product, new pitch
by Jesus' new and used Sunday October 23, 2005 at 07:56 PM

... and the difference between the Crusades of olde and the invasion and rape of Iraq TODAY is what exactly?

911 which they didn't do?

The WMDs they didn't have?

The "terror" they didn't sponsor?

The democracy (which they didn't have - but then even our allies over there don't have that so....)?

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Iraqis support attacks: poll
From correspondents in London
23oct05

A secret poll commissioned by senior British officers shows that millions of Iraqis believe that suicide attacks against British troops are justified, a newspaper reported overnight.

The poll shows that up to 65 per cent of Iraqi citizens support attacks and fewer than one percent think allied military involvement is helping to improve security in their country, the Sunday Telegraph said.

The nationwide survey, undertaken for the Ministry of Defence, demonstrates for the first time the true strength of anti-Western feeling in Iraq after more than two and a half years of bloody occupation, the newspaper said.

The survey also suggests that the coalition has lost the battle to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people, which British Prime Minister Tony Blair and US President George W. Bush believed was fundamental to creating a safe and secure country, it said.

The newspaper also said Lieutenant Colonel Nick Henderson, the commanding officer of the Coldstream Guards in the southern Iraqi city of Basra, in charge of security for the region, has resigned from the army.

The secret poll appears to contradict claims made by General Sir Mike Jackson, the Chief of the General Staff, who only days ago congratulated British soldiers for "supporting the Iraqi people in building a new and better Iraq".

Andrew Robathan, a former member of the elite Special Air Service and the Conservative shadow defence minister, said Saturday night that the poll clearly showed a complete failure of government policy.

"This clearly states that the Government's hearts-and-minds policy has been disastrous. The coalition is now part of the problem and not the solution," Robathan was quoted as saying.

"I am not advocating a pull-out but if British soldiers are putting their lives on the line for a cause which is not supported by the Iraqi people then we have to ask the question, 'what are we doing there?' "

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,17008628%255E1702,00.html

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Crusader Rabbit - Over there without a clue.

Let's suck it and see will we?

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