Zen and the Heart of a Social Rebel : Melbourne Indymedia

Even cats do it!
Zen and the Heart of a Social Rebel
Interview with Augusto Alcalde on Zen, The religious and Social Change and activism
By Vladimir Keredmischieff
Melbourne, Australia, Summer 2004
V. Last time we did this was right after rohatsu in 1991 and at that time we discussed forms and structures in Argentina that were different from other places. There have been quite a few changes since that time in your own life. Do you want to address some of those? What things are different from 1991?
Changes in my life since 1991? Well, first thing, some things didn’t change: I’m still drinking, still smoking, still like reggae music; I still like my motor bike.
Things that have changed: my dog is no more around in this planet. I guess, in those years I went through a process of recovering or recreating my identity as a social activist and I’m more involved now in that than I was in 1991. (And with the same passion i had in the early 60's and 70's) I see that as one of the main changes because that’s been coloring my daily life over the years.
V. There are things that have changed since I was in Argentina 11 years ago. You had a sangha there, we’d just finished rohatsu with 18 or 20 participants and I understand now that that’s no longer happening. What happened in the interim between my last visit and now, in terms of your Zen practice and Zen teaching in Argentina?
Yea, now that you mention it, I can see that your visit was the beginning of the decline of my activities as a Zen teacher around Latin America.
[laughter]
There have been big changes. I went through a lot of processes, personal processes, practice processes, political and social processes, family processes and processes between then. At the present moment I’m basically not teaching. That’s the thing I’ve not been doing in my own place since, I think, 1996 after trying to step aside, step down from that role for a couple of years and finally when I resigned from the Diamond Sangha and decided to walk alone.
V. When did you resign?
Gee, I think the final time I resigned was... when I circulated the letter of resignation was…certainly in the year 2000 but I don’t remember the month. The process began around 1998. I think I wrote my first letter around that time. The final part of a painful process (for everyone involved) that started around the early 90's.
V. So, before that time, looking back at 1991, between 1991 and 2000, your teaching in Argentina basically stopped within that period there?
Yea, when I resigned from the Diamond Sangha, I decided to quit my role as a teacher, work on other things that were not working and be able to drop them or heal them and engage the things that were working. I think to say there are certain containers that bring the best out of you and certain containers that don’t do that for you. This is not in the container, but in the relationship and/or affinity between the person and the container. And I saw very clearly at that moment that my work with the Clifton Hill Zendo in Melbourne brought forth the best in me so I decided to keep that connection alive which has been happening for the last ten years so far. This is the only group I’m teaching at the moment.
V. So you’ve been teaching this group for about ten years now?
Yea, with the people in this group so far.
V. One of the things that we can look at with the Clifton Hill Group now, is that the last time we talked we spent quite a bit of time looking at forms and structure and the Clifton Hill group is quite different from other groups in that sense. What kind of differences are there between this group and other groups you’ve been involved with?
I’m not really clear about that. I’m too much inside to see what’s going on and probably this is one of the characteristics of the group here. At this moment my partner is with me here and I was curious to know what her opinion was about the movement, with her being completely outside. She said "You may be starting something, (‘you’ meant ‘us’) something you don’t realize what it is." I like her comment, especially when there is no intention of starting something different, just doing our practice.
I think if you ask me about the difference, I’ve been involved in many Zen groups and I think the absence of conflict is one of the key points here. The natural ability to work through the conflicts that do happen in time, in a friendly way, which is also related with the strong bonds that all of us have. Quoting my partner again, she said "you seem to be a bunch of friends that happen to share a practice." I think that is completely true.
Another aspect, you asked about differences, is a total absence of power struggle among group members. Maybe there is no power seat to be disputed or careers to build as a Zen student, Zen teacher or whatever. I think those are things I can see as a difference.
V. One of the things I notice that strikes me is an issue that was raised in Stuart Lach’s article, Establishing Hierarchy in Cha’n/Zen Buddhism, where he commented that in most Zen groups there is this desire among Zen students (or some students) to achieve the status of Dharma heir or teacher and that is certainly absent in this group. Do you think that has an impact on how the group relates to each other and the practice?
Absolutely. Talking about old times, you were talking about 1991, around that time; I gave an interview to the Blind Donkey magazine. It was titled the Dark Side of Zen Teaching. The word I used then to talk about the issue you’re talking about now was "teacher virus". I think there is something about that. I see many sanghas being infected by that. Soon there will be more teachers than students! And I don’t know if that will be a good thing as we’re supposed to be involved in a learning process.
V. As you know, I’m very interested in this area and one of the differences in things here, is that there is no aspiration by anybody, at least what I can see, to be a teacher. And that has an impact on the dynamic.
Including the teacher!
V. Including the teacher.
(laughter)
V. Another thing that is absent in this group is any kind of ritual. It seems to have been stripped right away to what I call ‘bare bones Zen’. It’s just a matter of going and sitting. There is very little ritual here. Do you think this lack of ritual has any impact on the group?
I don’t know. It is just Zen (But we like it!!), "bare bones Zen"... oh well... Talking about our last interview trigged a lot of old memories. For myself, some of them good ones and one of them is that at that time we were not using the word ritual for our ceremonies. We used the word ‘choreography’. It was the dharma choreography, something that is performed, is enacted for the sake of the dharma and for the sake of the practice, attention practice. I don’t see a lack of ritual here, or choreography, because we have the main element of any kind of Zen ritual, which is zazen and zazen structure and it is completely clear that this one of the key points in our practice — zazen and structure, working with the body. Then you have gassho, then you have kinhin, which is a traditional structure. So I think you have the basics. It’s here. ‘Bare bones Zen’—yea, I think that’s close as a definition.
V. Well, we don’t do things like sanpai here, there’s no bowing, there’s no chanting…
A. There’s no bowing to the teacher but there’s bowing at the end of kinhin and zazen…
V. Not the full bow, the sanpai. There are no dharanis. There’s no kyosaku, there’s no food ritual…
There’s no special place for the teacher…
V. …other than the dokusan room, of course. All of these things are very much an element of especially Japanese Zen but also Asian Zen in general. These particular forms have been developed over hundreds of years there and here this is the only the sangha that I know of that has stripped all of that away. I’m wondering whether, as Janet says, maybe something is happening here but you don’t know what it is, do you? My question is, what impact does it have on a group when you strip away this quite ancient practice?
I don’t know but one thing has to be completely clear: we didn’t remove anything. The group started like that …
V. …but all the members of the group were familiar with that and decided and not to do it. They must have made a conscious decision.
I think they come from, have a lot of influence from Antaji Zen, at the start. You can check with them that as it precedes me.
V. Did they not have that at Antaji?
They don’t have it. Uchijama Roshi used to call them ‘zazen toys’. So there was not a removal—the group started like this. On the other hand, we used to call ourselves a Zen group open to all traditions. We have a minority of Zen students in our zendo. I can see that the majority of people coming to our meetings being strongly influenced by Theravadan and Vispassana practice and of course other traditions, people who relate more to Christianity or whatever. And not necessarily interested in religion or "transcendence" at all. I think that’s why. So I can’t answer that question. If you remove those things [rituals] you get a healthy sangha? I don’t think it works like that. Probably it’s a matter of affinity which is more implied here. You have a group of people who have a very strong affinity with a way of practice which is quite basic, naked, with a way of relating which is quite intimate, friends having connections, knowing each other and a way of working together which is non-hierarchical, completely horizontal and autonomous. I think this affinity is what has shaped the group over the years and it is continuously shaping it. We really don’t know what will be the final form of our next sesshin or next Zen intensive because we will work from the experience of this one. For sure, as we said at the beginning, zazen form and practice will be maintained as that is the heart and that is what we do and we’re committed to that.
V. Coming back to the issue of ritual and how sangha members relate to each other… well, if you have someone walking around with a stick and hitting people, that person is automatically put in a different position from the persons being hit.
I think you are touching here on an important issue which may be related to power. I don’t see power as something essentially evil. I think there is a power unbalance in any relationship at any moment in our life. The problem I think is when it gets crystallized in one of the parts and doesn’t flow. For example, when I am talking I have the power because I’m talking and you are listening but then I stop talking and you will talk and then you have the power to make your point and I’m listening. But if I’m always talking and you’re always listening then there is a crystallization of that power and that’s prone to start trouble or sickness in a relationship. I think it’s basically more related to that. There is a true kind of relationship here that is not crystallized on roles or power struggles.
V. I think this is the crux of the matter, whether these rituals enforce that kind of power structure or whether they can still be used without that power structure.
I think they can still be used without that power structure if the people who are using them are free of the notions of power and they’re playing with them in that relationship. Rituals, or as we used to call them, ‘choreography’, can be a wonderful thing. I am fond of them in my life as I’m sure everyone of us in our life is full of small rituals which imply which hand you use for brushing your teeth and which hand you use for wiping your ass. There are certain rituals we have and they’re certainly not pernicious ones. And if you have a choreography of the dharma, there is a lot of play and re-creation of ancient wisdom there that I think can be appreciated if the people who are involved see them as such. It’s just a choreography.
You said something important, and Lachs points to that and I must say I don’t agree with the complete range of his opinions but some of them I share because I’ve been inside there and i know. I see a tremendous concentration of power in the forms and in the role of the teacher in Zen Buddhism, as I see in every other religion. Religions are usually started by people who move away from the traditional society and question it and they attain something and then the structure comes and you need to feed the structure and keep it working. You make alliances with a power-state and you get molded by that power-state. There is, for example, a tremendous unbalance of power when the teacher is sitting in a special room, wearing special clothes and has a special stick and knows all the answers and maybe even has a notebook by his side. He or she knows all the answers and the student doesn’t know anything. So I as the teacher, have the power to say Yes or No and you have to accept that. If I say No, you go back to your seat and dig into the answer until I say Yes. This is a tremendous concentration of power—power which I think is not good to have and I’m very aware of that and I stay completely away from that because basically I’m interested in a learning process and social change and there is no learning process neither social change if I’m sitting there and speaking the right answer, being the holy person and the other one is just there to conform to my view of a traditional Zen student.
V. I think that was one of the central issues which Stuart raised in his articles. Those areas are, I think, difficult for most students and most teachers. The idea that the teacher is guiding the student. Giving answers or withholding answers gives the teacher tremendous power. It seems that many teachers in our part of the world are not capable of handling that power, which leads to the misuse of it. I think it’s one of the issues in Western Zen that does need addressing: how do we create a situation where the teacher does not have a feeling of power.
Yea, I agree with that. It is pretty obvious. Though as i said, I don’t necessarily agree with the complete range of Lachs opinions. It seems that most of the efforts are aimed at creating the perfect cage so that the teacher is inside and won’t misbehave, which is, I think, a contradiction of terms because if you are a student and going to a teacher, you trust that process and there is something different there and you want to learn. I think it’s related to what you say—there is such an enormous concentration of power, right there it is being misused, it is inevitable that it would be misused. Maybe there are some "enlightened" teachers who can sit there and have the "right answers" and they can "guide" people the "right way to the right place"... I am very conscious that I’m not one of them!. At all! I’m not enlightened and I’m not sure of guiding people to the right place. I am not guiding anyone! So what I’m proposing, and the group is proposing is let’s work together, let’s inquire together into this fundamental issue. I may know certain things because I’ve spent much more time walking this road and I may know some pitfalls and I may know where the thorny bushes are and not get stung by that, but that’s all. That’s all. No special knowledge. And I get stung more than often anyway...
V. One of the other issues we don’t usually address is the mythology that has been built around Zen. Students tend to take it literally, so when a teacher gets Dharma transmission from another teacher and they say "I speak with the same mind as the Buddha, " this is very obviously untrue, very obviously a mythology built into the structure of Zen but many students don’t see this, especially when they are starting out and especially when they haven’t done wide-ranging readings on the topic and understand the history of Zen and how it has been created over the years. I think this can create problems.
Yes, of course. And among that mythology certain facts are incorrect, like most of the so called Dharma transmissions are not such and should be called inka, which is a certificate of teachership. Dharma transmission traditionally involves three documents, called originally sanmotsu — three matters, three issues. One is the inka, the other is related with other issues and has special kind of transmission of a knowledge of what you call mythology, interpretation of different signs and symbols related with the Dharma and a very, very detailed process of ritual which the person undergoes. Most of the so-called Dharma transmission in the West are not such. I’m not putting down that term. I’m just saying that it’s like that; it’s an inka which is teacher’s certificate and I think probably time that we should begin calling this by its true name.
V. This inka has, traditionally, been given to all kinds of people which have nothing to with their understanding of the Dharma or their ability to teach. It’s been part of a social and political structure. What I’m afraid of is that a lot of students don’t understand that.
Things are even worse. I think even some teachers don’t understand that!
V. I think you’re right there. Some teachers don’t understand that and don’t realize what their real position is in this entire structure of Zen.
One thing I find is that a lot of Zen students have not read enough about the history of Zen and don’t really understand what it is that they’re doing in that sense.
I think you’ve hit a point there. Yesterday I was giving an orientation talk to a group here, with a lot of newcomers and they asked the very same question. Someone was reading some Zen book and it was very hard reading, difficult to interpret. I agreed with her that in the Asian Zen context it was difficult. It would be the same in my country, in Argentina, if someone said they wanted to go to church on Sunday and you said, "oh well, you have to read a book about Christianity first." That’s not needed because it’s so embedded in the culture that you don’t need to read because it is so much part of that culture that you already know, even if you’re not a believer. You’re imbedded in that Catholic kind of culture, so you don’t need to read. But Zen here, in the South, is very new and I think it’s good to read and I think it is essential that people know what they are doing, to be able to frame their practice in a certain context, historically, sociologically, ideologically, spiritually—all kinds of things. I strongly believe this, emphasis this. Read, but read good materials. Question them, enquire in them, debate them, see if they are good for this time, for this moment in this culture. Take what you want, if it is useful for you, and discard what you don’t find useful. And much more, also read about other things too, there is a lot out there from where Buddhism and zen can and must learn a lot, a lot among social resistance movements, a lot among indigenous people’s struggles, a lot of teachings coming forth from the sincere and dedicated "Social Rebels" to quote the Zapatistas.
V. Maybe I’m misreading the situation, but there seems to be quite a bit of ignorance about Zen Buddhism, where it came from, how it developed, the political aspects of it, the mythology that’s been built into it over the centuries. It was only much later in my Zen practice, when I started to read up on the topic and discovered who these people were, the old masters, and how they fitted into their culture, that I started to get a broader understanding of Zen and I think it had a positive impact on my practice.
On the other hand, I think we can say that Zen is basically based on ignorance. After all we are all heirs of a guy who didn’t know who he was. And at that time he had more than 60 years of zen practice!!! I can’t see worse ignorance than that.
[laughter]
V. O.K. I’d like to look at social activism, an area you are involved with. Looking at it from a Zen Buddhist point of view, what difference, if any, is there between a Zen Buddhist engaging in social action and a non-Zen Buddhist, say, a Christian, or a Jew or a Muslim? Does the practice give you any difference?
I don’t know. I could look around and find an answer for you, but speaking from my own experience, the oldest thing I’ve been involved in, in my life, has been social activism, so it’s not that I came to social activism through Zen, it’s something that I was doing, with the exception of certain years when I disappeared because of political repression by the military dictatorship and I was just trying my best to survive in dignity. And then I completed the disappearance of my identity (maybe internalizing the "command" of the military dictatorship) into what you call the mythology of Zen, which was a very painful process and lasted a long time. And then, when that basic identity started to come back, I regained that free and rebel territory in my heart. So this precedes my Zen practice.
V. Doesn’t your Zen practice now color what you are doing, which is different than before?
I think it’s the other way. I think a lot of the inspiration for my Zen practice these days and the last few years (you were talking about the process of change) comes from the Zapatista movement first, and then from the movement in Argentina that I’m involved with, which is a group of unemployed people that some people like to call Urban Zapatismo (even though we don’t agree with that term as it’s a completely different experience). I get inspiration from that group, (the MTD Solano) from those people mainly as well as I do too from many anarchist and autonomous groups around the world and all this naturally is expressed into my Zen practice.
Yesterday I was asked to give a list of Zen books to read and I gave a nice list of books to read and then I said, Please, don’t be enclosed and think that they are Zen. Keep your eyes and your heart open to find inspiration for your Zen practice from other sources. It may be poetry, it may be music, it may be whatever nourishes you. It my case it’s been like that and I don’t want to recommend that [social activism] to everyone. It’s a matter of affinity.
V. Yes, but what I want to know is not how your activism influences your Zen practice, but how the Zen practice influences or colors your activism.
A. Here you came again! Well, in the beginning of last year there was a roadblock we did with some of my "compañeros" and the police were charging us and we started to run and I was running for two blocks already and suddenly the question came into my mind, What is practice in a moment like this? I was running and the police were chasing us and my friends were running. So the first question was, what is Zen practice in a moment like? The second question was, Shit, only a stupid Zen student can ask a question like this at a moment like this! So I kept running.
[laughter]
I really don’t know how Zen transpires in my activism, or my involvement with other groups. I know it does because I’ve been doing this practice so long it’s in my bones. I know it does; I just don’t know in what form. I’m conscious of that. Probably a willingness to listen. Probably the disposition to be completely in some action. Maybe the attitude of trying to grasp the heart of a situation and not get entangled in the details. Maybe the understanding that ultimately reality flows and we can’t grasp it but we can dance it and re-create the Pure Land right here right now, that land that our indigenous people used to call "The Land With No Evil" i believe this is my mail purpose in practice. Maybe those things transpire. But probably other people around could be more skilful than me in pointing out that because I’m inside it.
I tend to feel uneasy when someone says that from Buddhism we want to inspire social action or from Christianity or Islam or whatever. There is a certain subtle arrogance there. I think it’s a matter of listening and learning. I think Buddhism has a lot to learn and I think at this moment Buddhism needs to realize that: it has a lot to learn. It has a lot to drop off and has to face the fact, along with many other religions, that in 2000 years or 2600 years on earth, things really haven’t changed all for good. Suffering is even worse than then, and I mean also suffering for the "non-human" beings, including waters, stones, clouds and dreams. We have to face that fact, they have to face that fact, not as a defeat but as a possibility to see what is working and what is not working and face the new— face the situation, coming from the very same principles. It’s a time for learning. A time for humbleness, for no fear.
V. People bring to their social activities their beliefs and the social and religious structure that they have faith in and the question is how do you attune your religious beliefs (in this case Buddhism) with social activism? The two can’t be separated because if they are, that’s hypocritical. That’s saying that this thing is over here and that’s over there and the two never meet. And that’s not Buddhist practice, or any religious practice.
A. No, it’s not. I affirmed before that I don’t consider myself a Buddhist anymore. At our last sesshin, after my talk during the question and answer period (well, it’s not a question and answer; it’s a sharing period) someone said, Is what you are saying the Buddha Dharma? And I said, I don’t know. It may not be. What I’m talking about may not be Buddha Dharma or even Buddhist practice or even Zen. I’m sharing what is in my heart. It’s not for you to swallow it on trust as a truth but to enquire together and let’s find the truth. I don’t think there is any deep danger for a person in dropping the whole of their belief system in practice. Dropping the whole of their belief system, be that Buddhist, Christian, anarchist, Marxist or whatever. Sit there, full attention, drop the whole of your belief system and face that true nature. What is true in your beliefs will stand, there is no risk. What isn’t true will fade away. And that’s it.
I think we’re touching the issue here of the religious which is a crucial issue for you and you see Zen as a religion and Buddhism as a religion and I can’t agree with that. What I would like to say is that my Zen practice is not a religion. I don’t convey it as a religion. Having said that I think it has to do with the religious; it has to do with touching the religious, the sacred, the mystery, the unknown, which is not involved with the structure of the temples or churches. And maybe that’s the point we’re touching here.
V. For me, Zen Buddhism is a religion. It’s not a practice of bettering yourself or solving your problems. It’s a spiritual practice. It’s trying to discover the mysteries of life. I think it’s a very sad thing when people approach it from the point of trying to solve all their problems. We know it doesn’t.
No, it doesn’t. It makes them worse. It increases them. It increases the coming forth of all your unconscious shadows. I don’t think we’re in fundamental disagreement here. You see it as a religion and I see it as a practice that touches the religious. There is no fundamental disagreement between the two. It has to do with the form of practice and the context.
V. I think it has to do with how we define the word religious. What does religious mean to you? What do you mean by the religious aspect of Zen practice?
You touch that nature that is the essence of all freedom, of all being, of all love, that has no centre, and is not the product of the observer.
V. I think that’s what we call ‘oneness’, of being one with the world around us. The heart that is always there, which we have great difficulty touching.
Sure. We have difficulty in realizing that that is touching us at every moment. We have difficulty in realizing we are already that, at every moment. We can’t escape from that. We’re completely stuck in that. So it’s not a matter of realizing; it’s a matter of seeing and expressing. What I mean is it’s not a matter of gaining; it’s a matter of knowing and expressing it which makes it quite simple and it’s that utter simplicity that makes it so difficult to convey.
V. Yes, that’s what makes it so difficult. There is nothing to gain and there’s nothing to lose. What I like to say is that you realize your place, your place in the whole grand picture.
The definition of zazen by Dogen is "the dharma gate of ease and joy." I usually say to people you have two words to check your practice, ease and joy. Are you doing zazen? Are you going through that gate of ease and joy or not? If not, o.k., let’s tune it. Let's tune that chord.
V. Yes, but that dharma gate is not easy to pass through and that’s what I say is religious.
That’s all right, Vlad... Whatever gets you through the night is o.k.
[laughter]
V. Maybe we should leave it there for now!
[laughter]
We are not creating a new way or path, we are doing a very old thing, call it zazen if you want, a very old practice, even cats do it!